Creating My Very First Tabletop Game
Miniac
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17.07.2023
I always liked creating games but I find it so overwhelming, and for some reason I don't feel I'm legitimate, like my game can't be nearly as good as other games already on the market.
Can't wait to see how yours will turn out!
Looking at the duelling rules for Burning Wheel (TTRPG) might be a good source of inspiration. It's got a really solid balance between RNG and strategy to take you to victory.
The Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks were a one on one duelling system that might have some useful hints. War of the Wizards, a little boardgame by MAR Barker, set in the Empire of the Petal Throne Tekumel world, was a progenitor of Magic the Gathering in which two wizards are at the ends of a linear field, casting spells, which move between them and interact. Probably hard to come by.
Does there exist a single fully painted army in Song of Ice and Fire?
My suggestion was an idea that popped into my head to solve the idea of a duelist focused game where you want exciting movement and interesting choices.
My thought is that the environment needs to evolve/be dangerous, and require the attention of the players.
Lets say the arena is separated into just a few different zones. At any moment it could start falling apart, portions of it could be vanishing, crumbling around them, or suddenly become affected by weather or wild magic. The floor could literally become lava. Each area has a magic "core" you can interact with to either keep that area safe from wild energy, or tamper with it to help something specific to happen.
Then, Depending on your Duelist, each character might have certain immunities to weather, or might be able to take control on the rain with specific attacks. A mage uses an ice spell in a zone that was just flooded to create dangerous terrain or trap their opponent for a turn or so.
I think something like this could create an intricate dance of fighting, and having to disengage from their opponent to maintain order in the chaos around them, or potentially fall to the environment itself.
Random bonus idea for a theme.
You play as deities, this arena is where you go to settle your disputes. Each zone is invested with all powers that govern the universe, and will cause them to plane shift or have a random effect generated. The goal is to find the balance between fighting your opponent directly, and using your godly alignments to alter the reality around you to your advantage.
You know – listening to you talk made me think of the card game Flesh and Blood. That astetic (two heros with different options in terms of weapons and powers) is something underexplored in the skirmish game territory imo. Might be worth thinking about. Just my late to the party thoughts. And i love game design so had to comment.
I’m not completely sold on the 1v1 style of game. I feel like it would lead to a lot of the character building taking place on a sheet of paper, recording traits, weapons, skills, held items etc.. instead of kitbashing an appropriate model and having it visually represented on the table. I’d be more inclined to play a 3v3 game mode, where you are able to build diverse lists for different strategies, like having a dedicated ranged model and a couple of melee combat models for example.. allowing you to manoeuvre the models around the terrain to gain advantage, and not ending up with both models meeting in the middle and whoever has the best stat sheet or rolls the best dice wins.
I feel like a warhammer underworlds style of game but with an open map instead of hexes could work quite well. With more focus on the combat rather than capturing objectives or the scoring system being linked to a card in your hand that your opponent isn’t aware of.
Having the win conditions crystal clear to both players, but the route to victory and the combat tricks and strategies the players can employ being closed knowledge and the better player who can deploy their strategy whilst hampering that of the opponent being the deciding factor on who can steal the win.
unmatched will more than likely be recommended so i'll go with Street Fighter : The miniatures game. Has you moving around for different types of attacks and set ups to do combos and punish people into terrain, lot of fun.
Sounds to me it'll be a two player boardgame but with two miniatures on the table. I guess you can look at any two player boardgame and find the mechanics you like.
I think a method to fix the melee problem of face-locking is to have orientation matter, and to have movement tied to special maneuvers for more damage/accuracy/effectiveness. Face-to-face would have the best defense, but if you maneuver behind your opponent you can get in a good strike, but then there should be some type of counter-roll against it. Perhaps treat each figure like a hex-piece, and each side has its own defense stat, like a shielded arm will have a better defense than a weapon
Hey Miniac!
Couple of things.
1) I think the idea of a dueling game is a wonderful idea – but i think you should focus on more than 1 mini – Say a two on two, or a three on three. My favorite game i have ever played was world of Warcraft Arenas. Specifically the arenas – it was the only type of game play i really enjoyed in that game, and i didn't just enjoy it – i loved it. There was nothing else like it anywhere – the game play loop itself didn't need anything else to it, no other modes – and having the opportunity to have more than 1 person in the duel enabled things like synergy, cross play, crowd control, and lets you play with different stats (speed, tackiness, etc). I still crave playing that game, and nothing else fills the gap it has left.
2) I love the idea of a high quality display mini as part of that game. I enjoy painting busts, but when im done, i also wish i could use them for something. This also gets that itch too!
In terms of your game, I love the idea in terms of scope — the scale for one is unique, and the concept of duelling keeps it tight and focused.
Remember, in terms of comparison to For Honor, that's still a team game — if this were the same style, 3v3, you'd still have your focus while being able to explore the things you talked about. Choosing the best fight for your characters, rewarding or punishing tactical withdrawal or pack tactics, having a punishment for ganging up in an unfair manner (buffs for solo characters in those situations, etc. and perhaps relying on that as a winning strategy)
Have you looked at Warhammer Underworlds? It's a squad based tactical game, but has a deckbuilding mechanic which seems pretty against the spirit of what you're looking to do here. Might be worth playing a game or two just to see what appeals to you and what doesn't work.
So, as far as game mechanics that I love one big thing is the way the turns work in Battletech/Alpha Strike is how both sides get to use all their units each turn and damage is dealt at the end of each round, so your biggest unit can shoot at least once even if you lose initiative.
Although am not interested in 40k I still watch Primark match ups on Play on or mwg and find them interesting so maybe see what of that makes an interesting game. Similarly Sad and Lonely Wargamer was doing a similar thing with OPR….
My suggestion for making the game fun in terms of spellcasters, melee, and ranged combat is to force movement somehow. I think you should draw some inspiration from gloomhaven where a player must commit cards to the board and then later those cards 'resolve', which will help the opponent to react to what their enemy is doing so you avoid gameplay where highest damage and most hitpoints will win you the game. (people essentially just wailing at each other) To utilize the gameboard I think you should have area templates for various attacks so players must move out of the way or behind cover to avoid getting hit. Finally my last tip is to look at cards from magic the gathering and see how they have done traits/abilities as well as maybe get some inspiration for what kinds of abilities the characters can have.
Have you ever tried Inquisitor: Battle for the Emperors Soul? It was an older GW 54mm game. Much bigger models with really detailed rules. Not quite 1v1 but more like 4v4.
So I recommend looking into this indie game that's going to do another kickstarter for its second edition called "Mechatop". The idea is that instead of miniatures, you actually use Gunpla figures, action figures, and even display figures of various space ships and such. The idea is you stat your mech out with a point system between weapons and special moves, then you play a game between after all players are done. Worth looking at to see how you can apply a similar concept to your game.
11:20 – 12:03 Laughs in Battletech
But seriously, Why not take a look at Mammoth Miniatures' "Super tiny Skirmish" where each player fields one or more minis to duke it out. The rules are super simple and take up a strip of paper. It's sold with two paper minis and a pair of tiny dice too. Maybe you can take some cues from that?
Another game that comes to mind is Alternative Armies' dueling game "En Garde" which is of course a 1v1 game. It's sold as a standalone rules system but I think they sell a bundle set too…
Maybe it wouldn't hurt to look into ancient gladiator game systems since they would most likely have 1v1 rules in them and also rules to spice up gameplay in case the players want to add more minis to the mix. I believe many would also have rules for terrain features that don't require off-scale trees.
And why not look into that Flesh and Blood game I noticed being recommended here in the comments since it might provide some ideas for kitting out your duelists?
I think some inspiration you could take is from "hero" shooters in video games. They emphasize the individuality of single characters, played by players, with special abilities and unique aesthetics. You could probably learn a lot about balancing groups of characters. Overwatch is a example of this. You may also want to look at how RPG's do stats.
You mention one thing you really like about certain games is making it your own, designing a army, making unit lists, etc. One thing you may want to do then is, while providing a number of templates for players, allow players to create their own character from scratch and allow them to choose abilities and stats according to a ruleset. This would be more difficult to balance than individual characters but you could also restrict certain combinations if their OP or broken.
As far as model production is concerned, in combination with the above, provide players with "blank" character models that allow a high degree of customization. Even allowing for players to 3d print customizations (they will anyway.) Think of dolls (or GI Joes) in real life. You could always provide prefabricated parts for those without a printer.
One benefit of what I said above is that you would create a community of players that I think would be very invested in their character(s) that would lead to lively discussion on mechanics, ability combinations, etc.
This is a great idea, but please, especially since you're going to use a small team to develop this, employ a data scientist who knows how to build and run simulations to balance it, so many companies seem not to do this and it ruins games, which is a shame because it's so simple to do
There have been many attempts at doing duel-style games, like the old Shadowrun Duels from Wizkids. It's a hard thing to get right. I've been working on a game like this, coming in 2024, which fits your wishlist criteria.
Star Wars Shatterpoint has rules for moving enemy pieces as part of damage. Might be helpful for a 1v1 game so it doesn't become a stationary slapfight.
Infinity has a really good "turn order" where if its not your turn you can still react. This leads to "duel" feeling, especially at range. Also, TAGs are awesome.
If you want movement why not some kind of capture the flag?
On the movement mechanics, to prevent your dualists from just sitting base-to-base in the center forever:
I would recommend looking into the art of historical combat for inspiration, like HEMA specifically. You can build upon the theory of distance and sidestepping guards with swords and pole arms and extend that to range and magic.
In combat there's really only ranges like clenched in grapple, close enough to grab, close enough to strike, farther than striking distance, and unengaged entirely. Then you have the angles – you can be front on to your opponent's guard, giving them the most defensive position. Then you can be shifted to a side of their guard, giving you slight advantage. Then obviously if you can get their back, full advantage.
I don't know currently how this doesn't end up as just a circle dance, each player just moving and striking, but maybe there can be reasons to not move to the side, or a give and take choice between changing position and charging up a bigger attack.
I also suggest reading about and maybe even playing the print-and-play version of the game Yomi. It's an analog version of a 2D fighting game. It doesn't deal with distance but I think the simultaneous choosing of actions then simultaneous revealing with rock-paper-scissors (attack-block/dodge-throw) interaction would be a very appropriate design choice for this game.
Maybe a rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock version (strike-defend/parry-close/clench-dodge/retreat/reposition-magicBIGeffect)?
Fighting games like Streetfighter or Soul Calibre could have some interesting ideas for a game like this. There was also a DriveThruRPG game called "The Dolorous Stroke" that is sort of an RPG/wargame hybrid designed to use like 2-4 models.
If you know the battletech game system it's really freaking for adding a lot of crunch with very few models. Would be great inspiration for the type of game you're proposing g.
Mage Wars 😊 That is a good dueling game you can use as inspiration
I had a similar Idea to try to make a homebrew pokemon type game, but was running into a lot of the same problems you mentioned. I still really want to see a 1v1 pokemon wargame lol. Anyway, best of luck man, I hope it turns out awesome!
the part that rubs me the wrong way is youre already thinking about the money. this should be a miniature agnostic game and free with an option to support with extra $ to start. But thats just like my opinion, man.
I love this channel, I really do, but I have to say something here and frankly, I don't feel like agonizing over my phrasing to protect your feelings.
You are not Vince Venturella. You do not have to copy every phucking thing the poor guy does. We all get it, you have a massive man crush on the guy, can you move on from it and try being you, instead of trying to be him?
There is a lot of old fantasy warhammer mini games that might help get you some ideas
What if the footprint of a large model or bust represented a squad and the model itself was of the leader of that squad? That way the terrain is technically still in scale but you can still play with large scale minis. As someone who’s developing a deck building tabletop war game I thought about a lot of similar ideas before settling on what I’m using for my game.
Just scrolling through Facebook and a game called Senjutsu (by Stone Word Games) popped up. Looked exactly how i imagined your dueling game would be from what was said in this video.
Not sure if its already been mentioned in the comments already 👍
The kickstarter for Senjutsu is getting close to shipping. This is a 1v1 dueling mini game and might be worth looking into.
Another game shown at Adepticon that is 1v1 is Aerodome. Simple fast, solid game play, competitive and beer and pretzel at the same time.
Also, wasn't there a Star Wars game that used action figures that was essentially 1v1 duelling.
Someone else mentioned looking at moonstone for the combat mechanics, I'd second this.
If you put a double turn in the game the pro players can show skill ceiling with their knowledge that a double turn can happen and then screen their units.
And then in round 3 they can talk to each other that the guy who gets the priority wins the game and tell each other what could have happened if the other guy had won the prio and made their charges and got their spells
Wow, those Frostgrave warbands you showed are amazing! Do you have a video (or will you make one) in which you tell how did you make and how did you paint the minis?
As a person who designed and made video games in the past I can say that I like your approach. Start doing something and realize that it will never be perfect.
And I like the idea, but I'd like to be able to customize my hero. Change weapons as I acquire more money, learn skills as I gain more XP etc. This would require some "campaign" system…and that clashes with your goal to be competitive.
It seems I am not your "target audience" 🙁
This might not help to much cause i cant think of the game… But there is a musketeer skirmish game were combat forces units to move back and forth. Attacking unit wins combat, defender if pushed back. You get alot of back and forth with it.
Flesh and Blood is literally the most fun I’ve ever had in a card game or really any type of table top game.
I think that a single miniature war game could be very cool, but I think it needs to be looked at differently from the standard war game.
To be, duelling is something that’s personal, that’s violent because of some history, it’s almost intimate. It feels a lot more character focused than the standard battle, and even more performative. Duels tended to be (historically) in front of multiple people as a show of settling a score, and I think there could be some really great opportunity to let people showcase character through their actions along with their tactics
On the board game side, Unmatched would be a good place to start. Its not a miniatures war game and its not exclusively solo units but it certainly can be 1v1 with solo units.
As im thinking through it, i wonder if mechanics like double card sides in Marvel Crisis Protocol could be utilized. As you take damage, you hit a threshold. Then youre at youre next "stage" which gives you different stats or abilities.
Im guessing youd want positioning to be important for attacks to allow for various strategies in how you battle.
Bwst of luck! I look forward to watching the process
look into street fighter miniature game similar to what ur talking about
I think the main thing you need to consider is whether your single player game would benefit from a multiple players mode. I think right now your core concept needs to be where the most scrutiny goes, and you want a beer and pretzels competitive/semi-competitive experience, but for a laid back style you might want to open up to a free for all or duos mode, as those styles are naturally going to be a gateway for interested parties to play.
Late to this, but a few skirmish games to look at would be Malifaux for its use of playing cards instead of dice, and Warmachine/Hordes for how they handle individual models as well as damage. I think this would a phenomenal idea and I can't wait to see what you cook up
Gaslands is a great one to check out for being able to play extremely quickly. Its just "do you have some hotwheels? Here are some rules", in the same way you want to give people with busts/large scale models something to do with them
Lol I just found this video and it’s almost exactly the game I’ve been developing off and on for a few months. The race is on
The description of what you're aiming for reminds me of Unmatched. It's a solid 1v1 miniature boardgame with ranged and melee characters. It's very well balanced and a ton of fun. Definitely check it out!
here we goooooo!